Daf 87a
אֲמַר לֵיהּ אִין לִינָה בְּרֹאשׁוֹ שֶׁל מִזְבֵּחַ קַיבְּלַהּ מִינֵּיהּ אוֹ לָא תָּא שְׁמַע דְּאִיתְּמַר אֵיבָרִים שֶׁלָּנוּ בָּעֲזָרָה מְקַטֵּר וְהוֹלֵךְ כָּל הַלַּיְלָה לָן בְּרֹאשׁוֹ שֶׁל מִזְבֵּחַ מְקַטֵּר וְהוֹלֵךְ לְעוֹלָם
אֲמַר לֵיהּ לְכַתְּחִילָּה לִיקְרַב קָמִיבְּעֵי לִי הָא נָמֵי תְּנֵינָא
בְּעָא מִינֵּיהּ רֵישׁ לָקִישׁ מֵרַבִּי יוֹחָנָן כְּלֵי שָׁרֵת מַהוּ שֶׁיְּקַדְּשׁוּ אֶת הַפְּסוּלִין אֲמַר לֵיהּ תְּנֵיתוּהָ כְּשֵׁם שֶׁהַמִּזְבֵּחַ וְהַכֶּבֶשׁ מְקַדְּשִׁין אֶת הָרָאוּי לָהֶן כָּךְ כֵּלִים מְקַדְּשִׁין
כְּשֵׁם שֶׁהַמִּזְבֵּחַ מְקַדֵּשׁ כּוּ' תָּנוּ רַבָּנַן הַנֹּגֵעַ בְּמִזְבֵּחַ אֵין לִי אֶלָּא מִזְבֵּחַ כֶּבֶשׁ מִנַּיִן תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר אֶת הַמִּזְבֵּחַ כְּלֵי שָׁרֵת מִנַּיִין תַּלְמוּד לוֹמַר כָּל הַנֹּגֵעַ בָּהֶם יִקְדָּשׁ
יָרְדוּ רַבָּה אָמַר יַעֲלוּ רָבָא אָמַר לֹא יַעֲלוּ שְׁמַע מִינַּהּ לָא קַיבְּלַהּ מִינֵּיהּ שְׁמַע מִינַּהּ
וְאֶלָּא דְּיָרְדוּ לְשֻׁלְחָן מְדַמֵּינַן לַהּ דִּתְנַן אֲפִילּוּ הֵן עַל הַשֻּׁלְחָן יָמִים רַבִּים אֵין בְּכָךְ כְּלוּם אוֹ דִילְמָא לְקַרְקַע מְדַמֵּינַן
בְּעָא מִינֵּיהּ רָבָא מֵרַבָּה לִינָה מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁוֹ שֶׁל מִזְבֵּחַ אוֹ אֵינָהּ מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁוֹ שֶׁל מִזְבֵּחַ הֵיכִי דָמֵי אִילֵּימָא דְּלֹא יָרְדוּ הַשְׁתָּא לָנוּ בַּעֲזָרָה אָמְרַתְּ דְּלֹא יֵרְדוּ בְּרֹאשׁוֹ שֶׁל מִזְבֵּחַ מִיבַּעְיָא
אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב פָּפָּא לְאַבָּיֵי וְכִי מֵאַחַר דִּשְׁלַחוּ מִתָּם הִילְכְתָא כְּרַב יוֹסֵף וְאָמַר רַבִּי חִיָּיא בַּר אַבָּא וְכֵן תָּנֵי בַּר קַפָּרָא רַבָּה וְרַב חִסְדָּא בְּמַאי פְּלִיגִי אֲמַר לֵיהּ בִּשְׁמֵנִים
אִיתְּמַר נָמֵי אָמַר רַבִּי חִיָּיא בַּר אַבָּא פֵּירְשׁוּ קוֹדֶם חֲצוֹת וְהֶחְזִירָן אַחַר חֲצוֹת לֹא נֶהֱנִין וְלֹא מוֹעֲלִין וְכֵן תָּנָא בַּר קַפָּרָא פֵּירְשׁוּ קוֹדֶם חֲצוֹת וְהֶחְזִירָן לְאַחַר חֲצוֹת יוֹצְאִין מִידֵי מְעִילָה
מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב יוֹסֵף וּמַאן לֵימָא לַן דַּחֲצוֹת בְּרֹאשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ מְשַׁוְּיָא לְהוּ עִיכּוּל דִּילְמָא כֹּל הֵיכָא דְּמַשְׁכְּחָא לְהוּ מְשַׁוְּיָא לְהוּ עִיכּוּל שְׁלַחוּ מִתָּם הִלְכְתָא כְּרַב יוֹסֵף
פֵּירְשׁוּ קוֹדֶם חֲצוֹת וְהֶחְזִירָן לְאַחַר עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר רַבָּה אָמַר חֲצוֹת שֵׁנִי עוֹכַלְתָּן רַב חִסְדָּא אָמַר אֵין בָּהֶן עִיכּוּל לְעוֹלָם
אָמְרִי בֵּי רַב מַאי טַעְמָא דְּרַב חִסְדָּא וּמָה חֲצוֹת שֶׁאֵין עוֹשֶׂה לִינָה עוֹשֶׂה עִיכּוּל עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר שֶׁעוֹשֶׂה לִינָה אֵינוֹ דִּין שֶׁעוֹשֶׂה עִיכּוּל
חֲצוֹת שֵׁנִי עוֹכַלְתָּן רַב חִסְדָּא אָמַר עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר עוֹכַלְתָּן
The second midnight consumes them. (1) R. Hisda said: The dawn consumes them. The scholars of the Academy said: What is R. Hisda's reason? If midnight, which does not establish linah, (2) establishes ‘ikul; (3) then dawn, which establishes linah, surely establishes ‘ikul. If they sprang off before midnight and he replaced them after dawn,— Rabbah said: The second midnight consumes them; R. Hisda said: They never reach ‘ikul. (4) To this R. Joseph demurred: And who is to tell us that midnight establishes ‘ikul [only when they are] on the top of the altar; perhaps it establishes ‘ikul wherever they are? They sent from thence: (5) The law agrees with R. Joseph. (6) It was stated likewise: R. Hiyya b. Abba said: If they sprang off before midnight and were replaced after midnight, you may not use them, nor do you commit trespass on their account. (7) Bar Kappara taught likewise: If they sprang off before midnight and were replaced after midnight, they are not subject to trespass. R. Papa asked Abaye: Now, since they sent from there [that] the law agrees with R. Joseph, and R. Hiyya b. Abba said [the same], and Bar Kappara taught likewise, wherein do Rabbah and R. Hisda disagree? — In the case of fat [limbs], he answered him. (8) Raba asked Rabbah: Is linah effective [when the limbs are] on the top of the altar, or is it not effective on top of the altar? — What are the circumstances: if we say that they [the limbs] did not descend, (9) surely since you say that even if they were kept overnight in the Temple court they do not descend, (10) can there be a question [when they are kept on] the top of the altar? (11) Rather [the question is] where they descended. Do we liken it to the Table, for we learnt: Even if they (12) are on the Table many days, it does not matter? Or perhaps we liken it to the pavement of the Temple court? (13) — Said he to him: Linah is not [effective when the flesh is] on the top of the altar. Did he accept [this ruling] from him or did he not accept it from him? — Come and hear. For it was stated: Limbs which spent the night in the Temple court, [the priest] can go on burning them all night; (14) if they were kept overnight on the top of the altar, he can always go on burning them. (15) If they descended: Rabbah said: They re-ascend; Raba said: They do not reascend. (16) This proves that he did not accept [the ruling] from him. This proves it. JUST AS THE ALTAR SANCTIFIES, etc. Our Rabbis taught: Whatsoever touches the altar [shall be holy]: (17) I know it only of the altar; how do I know [it of] the ascent? Because it says, the [eth] altar. (18) How do we know [it of] service vessels? Because it says: Whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy. (19) Resh Lakish asked R. Johanan: Do the service vessels sanctify the disqualified? — We have learnt it, he replied: JUST AS THE ALTAR AND THE ASCENT SANCTIFY WHATEVER IS ELIGIBLE FOR THEM, SO DO VESSELS SANCTIFY! (20) Said he, My question is whether they can be offered in the first place. But that too we have learnt:
(1). ↑ They will not be assumed to reach the stage of hardness (v. supra 86b) until the following midnight; unless, of course, they are reduced to ashes before then.
(2). ↑ The status of flesh that is kept overnight. Midnight does not confer that status, and flesh that falls off after midnight is replaced on the altar.
(3). ↑ Lit. ‘burning,’ ‘consumption’. If the flesh is hard by midnight (v. supra 86b top) it is regarded as consumed, and if it springs off after that it is not replaced.
(4). ↑ Whenever they spring off, until they are actually ashes, they must be replaced, and involve trespass.
(5). ↑ Sc. from Palestine — The reference is to R. Eleazar (v. Sanh. 17b).
(6). ↑ His argument is correct. — Actually they did not give a ruling (Tosaf).
(7). ↑ They need not have been replaced, as they no longer belong to the altar. Hence they do not involve trespass; nevertheless, benefit from them is interdicted by Rabbinical law.
(8). ↑ Even when they harden they are not regarded as consumed (‘ikul), because their fat keeps them from becoming ashes. Only then do Rabbah and R. Hisda disagree as to their status. But in the case of ordinary flesh they agree that midnight establishes ‘ikul.
(9). ↑ But remained on the altar, away from the fresh wood pile for the new sacrifices.
(10). ↑ If placed on the altar after the night passed.
(11). ↑ Surely they do not descend.
(12). ↑ The loaves of the Showbread.
(13). ↑ Hence it becomes unfit.
(14). ↑ But not after, for linah disqualifies them.
(15). ↑ They are never disqualified as long as they are there.
(16). ↑ Because linah disqualifies them, and so like all disqualified limbs they do not re-ascend once they descended.
(17). ↑ Ex. XXIX, 37.
(18). ↑ The reference is probably either to XXIX, 44: And I will sanctify the tent of meeting, and the altar; or to XXX, 26-28: And thou shalt anoint therewith... the altar of burnt-offering. In either case the preceding eth (which denotes the acc.) is regarded as an extension, thus including the ascent.
(19). ↑ Ibid. XXX, 29. ‘Them’ refers (among other things) to service vessels, which are spoken of in the preceding verses.
(20). ↑ The reference being to disqualified sacrificial parts. V. Mishnah notes.
(1). ↑ They will not be assumed to reach the stage of hardness (v. supra 86b) until the following midnight; unless, of course, they are reduced to ashes before then.
(2). ↑ The status of flesh that is kept overnight. Midnight does not confer that status, and flesh that falls off after midnight is replaced on the altar.
(3). ↑ Lit. ‘burning,’ ‘consumption’. If the flesh is hard by midnight (v. supra 86b top) it is regarded as consumed, and if it springs off after that it is not replaced.
(4). ↑ Whenever they spring off, until they are actually ashes, they must be replaced, and involve trespass.
(5). ↑ Sc. from Palestine — The reference is to R. Eleazar (v. Sanh. 17b).
(6). ↑ His argument is correct. — Actually they did not give a ruling (Tosaf).
(7). ↑ They need not have been replaced, as they no longer belong to the altar. Hence they do not involve trespass; nevertheless, benefit from them is interdicted by Rabbinical law.
(8). ↑ Even when they harden they are not regarded as consumed (‘ikul), because their fat keeps them from becoming ashes. Only then do Rabbah and R. Hisda disagree as to their status. But in the case of ordinary flesh they agree that midnight establishes ‘ikul.
(9). ↑ But remained on the altar, away from the fresh wood pile for the new sacrifices.
(10). ↑ If placed on the altar after the night passed.
(11). ↑ Surely they do not descend.
(12). ↑ The loaves of the Showbread.
(13). ↑ Hence it becomes unfit.
(14). ↑ But not after, for linah disqualifies them.
(15). ↑ They are never disqualified as long as they are there.
(16). ↑ Because linah disqualifies them, and so like all disqualified limbs they do not re-ascend once they descended.
(17). ↑ Ex. XXIX, 37.
(18). ↑ The reference is probably either to XXIX, 44: And I will sanctify the tent of meeting, and the altar; or to XXX, 26-28: And thou shalt anoint therewith... the altar of burnt-offering. In either case the preceding eth (which denotes the acc.) is regarded as an extension, thus including the ascent.
(19). ↑ Ibid. XXX, 29. ‘Them’ refers (among other things) to service vessels, which are spoken of in the preceding verses.
(20). ↑ The reference being to disqualified sacrificial parts. V. Mishnah notes.
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